Template talk:Bestiarychart

Don't all the extra brackets just make it more of a pain to replace the data?

The brackets simply tell MediaWiki what to place where. They are variable parameters. No replacement is necessary. Additionally, defaults can be provided: for instance, Special Attack defaults to None if the parameter is not supplied. We can also do more complex logic (leaving row out entirely, for instance) but I don't want to go that far yet. --Shelby038 (talk) 00:22, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

sorry, that doesn't make complete sense. I can SEE the brackets. If I put information into the cell, don't I obviously cut the brackets first and then place the information? I don't like sounding like an idiot, but I don't understand the context of "default" in this instance. Nor "parameter." Nor "variable." These are words used with different meanings in about fifty thousand programs, so I have no idea what they mean HERE. As such, this is a totally useless information for me. It is clear you've spent a lot of time with wikipedia; I have not. Wikispaces did not have a tenth of these features and most just baffle me.

Fair enough. The Template page itself merely shows the organization of the box. When it's actually used, you don't edit out the variables. Instead, you would type "name = Alpaca". The server then goes and looks at the template, sees that {{{name}}} is formatted like so, and substitutes "Alpaca" for you. See the code below (don't worry yet about how the blocks appear on this page)?

Alpaca

Species	Camelid
No. Appearing	4–10
Behaviour	herd (loose)
Range	alpine
Size	3 ft. at shoulder
Weight	180 lbs.
Intelligence	1
Armour Class	7
Hit Dice	1
Action Points	5
Max. Stride	{{{stride}}}
THAC0	20
Hp/Die	d8
Attack Forms	hoof
Damage	1–4
Special Attacks	wark

{{Bestiarychart
| name = Alpaca
| species = Camelid
| noapp = 4–10
| behaviour = herd (loose)
| range = alpine
| size = 3 ft. at shoulder
| weight = 180 lbs.
| int = 1
| AC = 7
| HD = 1
| AP = 5
| THAC0 = 20
| hpdie = d8
| attack = hoof
| dmg = 1–4
| special = wark
}}

Now, suppose I am lazy or I only have partially researched this beast. So I type the following.

Alpaca

Species	Camelid
No. Appearing	{{{noapp}}}
Behaviour	{{{behaviour}}}
Range	{{{range}}}
Size	{{{size}}}
Weight	{{{weight}}}
Intelligence	{{{int}}}
Armour Class	{{{AC}}}
Hit Dice	{{{HD}}}
Action Points	{{{AP}}}
Max. Stride	{{{stride}}}
THAC0	{{{THAC0}}}
Hp/Die	{{{hpdie}}}
Attack Forms	{{{attack}}}
Damage	{{{dmg}}}
Special Attacks	None

{{Bestiarychart
| name = Alpaca
| species = Camelid
}}

I have not provided most of the information that the Template expects, so it has no information to replace the default text with.

I apologize. I do have a bit more Wiki experience from some time ago, but here I'm drawing more on my programming experience. A parameter/variable is a changeable input to a program (which in this case is the template). A default, in this case, is what the program will use when no value is given to a parameter (as in the second example here). So in the case of the Special Attack parameter, I have told the program to type "None" when something specific is not given. Does this make a bit more sense? Sorry for the confusion. --Shelby038 (talk) 01:47, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'll experiment and see if I can make it work.

Keep in mind, I don't have ANY programming experience, past excel. So when you create something, and I don't know what it is, or how it works, I'm stuck with it, FOREVER. Someday, you may take off, go do something else ... but I'm always going to be here, I'm always going to be working with this system. So when you put in automatic links and programs and tags and a ton of other stuff, because it's cool and convenient and great and it is how everyone else in the world does it, you're setting me up for a day when I don't know how the fuck my own wiki works, because I wasn't there at your shoulder watching you do all this stuff. If this were a workplace, every single change you're making would be discussed ahead of time, in meetings, and a log made, and a how-to book written, to ensure that all the workers could then deal with the system. But here you're just flying into this without any of that.

People are Not raising their hand and saying, "What do you want me to do, Alexis?" People are deciding for themselves, "Hey, I know what Alexis needs!" And then doing it. I know this is meant to help me, but like I said ... In the long run, ten years from now, I'm dealing with all this auto-shit I never incorporated and was never trained how to deal with, while the programmers are off fuck knows where and unreachable. I want help. But it doesn't help to create nightmares five years down the road for me.

No, I understand completely. As I said the other day, I'm excited and that means rushing headlong into things. With that in mind, I don't want to move forward (or rather, shouldn't) with changing every page until I'm sure you understand how it works and how to change it if necessary. --Shelby038 (talk) 02:13, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Like I said, I believe you have the best intentions.

Ah, I see now what you were referring, Alexis. Honestly, this template was the first I was going to create :) I think we have to meet in a place (AFAIK, you already started on Help:Editing Guidelines and sort out this kind of things, plus leaving it documented for future users, so this doesn't become a recurring thing. @Shelby038, I'm quite adept at templating, myself. Once we've cleared with Alexis the requirements/uses of this one, we can team up for that. As examples, see my templates for foes, items and checks (a game mechanic) on my old wiki Scarbrow (talk) 09:30, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Scarbrow, I'd appreciate the help. (Pending approval,) I think it'd be nice to have a template that's less of a "table" and more of a block as per the original charts from the blog. But of course, with a well designed Template call, all that is more or less window dressing. --Shelby038 (talk) 16:51, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

You've taught me how to template, Shelby. That's a good thing; I made one for spells and it works! This one, the Bestiarychart, needs to be adjusted so it won't go wider than, say, 250px. There are several monsters with a ton of special attacks, and we don't want the chart to be wider than a certain amount, or it twill squeeze out the text.